2013 – NRC – Jocassee Dam – Transcript of interview released under settlement for Case 1-13-cv-00942-RMC – ML16244A000

2013-nrc-jocassee-dam-transcript-of-interview-released-under-settlement-for-case-1-13-cv-00942-rmc-ml16244a000

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— –_r—– ~ – — —– Releasea under tne settlement 54
for Case 1:13-cv-00942-RMC
1 MR. CRISCIONE: You know, I’ve got the home
2 phone numbers of people on that project, I ‘ve got their
3 cell phone numbers, I’ve got their work numbers . You
4 know, I ‘ ve got their personal email accounts. You know,
5 we would do what we needed to do to contact each other.
6 If they weren’t at their work number, you’d call them
7 at their home number. You know, they’d tell you, “Call
8 me any time if you’ve got a question.”
9 And you’d call people at home, you’d call
10 them on their cell phone, you ‘d use their personal email
11 address, because t.hey – – you know, if they were on a leave
12 period or vacation, they are more likely to check that
13 than their work email . But, I mean, this is all – – this
14 is all non-secured stuff. I mean, it’s — none of it
15 is ouo. –
16 Now, this December 10th email is something
17 different, and I — you know, I don’t know how much I
18 can speak to it without — I mean, if — you know, I’d
19 rather if we could take a break at: some point and
20 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS : We I 11 take a recess
21 and I’ll provide those to you .
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23 that .
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MR. CRISCIONE: Thank you. I’d appreciate
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Have you previously
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1 used any of the non-concurrence avenues afforded to
2 employees at the NRC?
3 MR. CRISCIONE: Yes .
4 SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS : Okay.
5 MR . CRISCIONE : Not regarding Jocassee
6 Dam, but yes .
7 SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Could you explain
8 the non- concurrence processes.:_ ___ I,” ‘i ~ o I
9 MR. CRISCIONE : Well, there is differing
10 professional opinions — process. And I have never used
11 that, by the way, but i t is my underst andi ng you submi t
12 a DPO. And there ‘ s a board that meets to d iscuss it,
13 and you get to choose one of the board member s.
14 And, really, that’s only if you’ r e i nvolved
15 with the — with decisionrnaking on the issue itself.
16 Like I can’t — at least it’s my understanding that :
17 can’t go ask for a DPO about how we are handling J ocassee
18 Dam if I’m just some guy in Research t ha t has nothing
19 to do with this.
20 SR. SPEC. AGENT WAL~S: Ar e there other
21 avenue s?
22 MR. CRISCIONE: Yeah. The
23 non- concurrence process, I have used that. And that’s
24 where i f you’ re a signatory on a document you can
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1 non-concur.
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And, you know, you non-concur, your
2 supervisor signs it, and you — you know, it gets — you
3 get an answer.
4 And before you use that process, and
5 probably before you use any process, you are s upposed
6 to first, you know, discuss it with your supervi sor, see
7 if you can — and discuss with the person who had the
8 i ssue to see if you can resolve it that way.
9 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: And the Commission
10 has an open door policy .
11 MR. CRISCIONE: Yeah, that’s — and I have
12 used that one as well . / : ().)/ 7J
. —-
13 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Okay. Could you
14 please explai n what role you had in the Generic Issues
15 GI – 204 screening report?
16 MR . CRISCIONE: Yeah . I didn’ t have
17 anything to do with it.
18 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: No role?
19 MR. CRISCIONE: No. No role.
20 SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: Okay.
21 MR. CRISCIONE : I was in the same branch
22 that wrote the report , but no role ·___., I~ or: s-o
23 SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: Could you please
24 explain the process and length of t i me it took to
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1 coordina t e the r edacted version of that GI-204 screening
2 report?
3 MR . CRISCIONE : Yeah. You know, that’s
4 rea lly something you s h ould talk to Richard Perkins,
5 Michelle Bensi, Se lim Sankata r, or Jake Phillips about.
6 But —
7 SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: What is your
8 knowledge of —
9 MR . CRISCIONE: Yeah .
10 SR . SPEC . AGENT WALLS: – – the process that
11 wa s involved?
12 MR . CRI SCIONE: Well, my knowledge is I
13 know all four of those people. And it took about a
14 year – – it was l ess t han a yea r, but, I mean, like we’ re
15 talking 11 month s , maybe 10 plus, to route that — get
16 that routed through approva:._:_ I: oG ; ::r 7
1 7 Now, you probably can’t tell me, but I’ll
18 ask anyways . Have you spoken to Richard Perkins about
19 that process?
20 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS : We’ 11 be talking to
21 a lot of p eople on this i ssue, but
22 MR . CRISCI ONE : Okay.
23 SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: – – right now I want
24 to know what your knowledge i s.
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MR. CRISCIONE: Okay.
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2 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Okay? What other
3 federal agencies influenced the decision on what
4 information needed to be redacted out of the GI-204
S screening report:__..- /: o ? ! Q?
6 MR. CRISCIONE: Well, let’s see,
7 Department of Homeland Security reviewed the report.
8 And initially I believe they said there was no – – nothing
9 they needed r edacted. But I also believe they changed
10 that opinion. I didn’t find out they had changed that
1 1 opinion until much later .
12 The Army Corps of Engineers, I think they
13 review the report. I don’t know if they specifically
14 redacted it, but I do know that they told us, you know,
15 some things they traditionally redact, and we redacted
16 it out. And then they released a report on Missouri
17 River flooding that really had a lot of the redacted
18 information out of the public report . _, 1• 0
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1 9 So, yeah, there’s some incongruencies
20 there.
21 And then, FERC and the Tennessee Valley
22 Authority , and I — to my knowledge , that’s everyone.
23 There might have been others, though.
24 SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS:
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Did you
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1 verify with anyone a t t h e NRC i f any of these agencies
2 objected to t he public release of their informa t ion~
3 MR. CRISCI ONE : Are you saying before I
4 sent the unredacted report to members of Congress, did
5 I verify wi t h any of those agencies?
6 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS : correct.
7 MR . CRISCIONE : No, I did not.
8 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Okay. And I guess
9 that would go — did you — wel l , this is a separate
10 question. Did you seek approval from DHS, the Army
11 Corps of Engine ers, or FERC, or the TVA, to release their
12 information in unredacted form~ ()I~ of[:-.rr
13 MR. CRISCIONE: Wh en you say “release,” I
14 did. Just documents to member s of Congress. I don’t
15 know if I would cla rify that as release, but that’s what
16 you’ re talking about is when I s ent those to members of
17 Congress?
18 SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Yes.
19 MR. CRISCIONE: I did not , no.
20 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Did Duke Energy
21 have a role in determining what information should be
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withheld in the GI -204 screening report? t ! o ‘/ : z.o
MR. CRISCIONE : Yes, they did.
SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: What role?
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MR. CRISCIONE: You know, I — like I said,
2 I wasn’t on that report, but I do know that there was
3 a phone call with Duke Energy prior to release of the
4 redacted report·__.- I ~ ‘ ‘!:’ ?J’
s SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Okay. You shared
6 with me a detailed response to the union as we
7 coordinated this interview explaining your actions in
8 releasing the unredacted GI- 204 report to Congress in
9 July of 2012. That’s correct_:::_– /:{ 3 – MR . CRISCIONE: That’s correct, yes.
14 SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: In your letter to
15 the union, you explain that you provided Richard
1 6 Perkins’ complaint and the unredacted screening report,
17 GI – 204, to about a dozen congressional offices in
18 September.
19 MR. CRISCIONE: That’s correct, yes .
20 SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS : Are they fully
21 detailed in this memorandum?
22 MR. CRISCIONE: They are, yes.
23 SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: Okay. Are we able
24 to have a copy of this memorandum?
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MR . CRISCIONE : You can keep that, or I can
2 email you the e l e c t ronic copy . I don’t care.
3 SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS : I ‘ 11 keep this one,
4 if you don’t mind.
5 MR . CRISCIONE: Yeah, that’s okay.
6 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: When you provided
7 Richard Perkins’ complaint letter in the unredacted
8 GI-204 report , did you inform the recipients of that
9 information of the sensitivity and urgency to protect
10 that info:rmation?
MR . CRISCIONE : I don’t specifically
12 remember doing that, no. I mean, but the unredacted
13 screening report i s stamped OUO . It’s not stamped SRI,
14 though, it’s stamped — I think it’s — no, I think it’s
15 stamped Not For Public Disclosure. I don ‘ t know exactly
16 what it’s stamped. I believe it’s Not For Public
17 Disclosure, t hough .
18 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: So other than the
19 stampings on the document, you didn’ t take any steps to
20 art iculate that this information was to be non-public?
MR . CRISCIONE: Not that I recall , no .
22 SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Okay.
23 MR . CRISCIONE: But reemphasize, I gave it
24 to people who I believed were – – had a need to know and
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1 were authori zed to r eceive it . And, you know, I’m not
2 aware tha t I h ad an obligation to — if I’m giving it
3 to someone who is authorized to receive it and has a need
4 to know, they also have an obligation to train them on
5 control of Offici al Use Only mat erial.
/ ~ J/ .’ZJl 6 SR . SPEC . AGENT WALLS: You mention in your
7 union email relat i ng to the GI-204 report that — and
8 you confirmed here today – – that the report was nothing
9 you were assigned to.
10 MR . CRISCI ONE : That’s correct, yeah.
11 SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: Yet you have taken
1 2 a lot of time, you have compiled numerous int ernally
13 protected documents in it from ADAMS, conducted research
14 into this matter, a nd you have engaged Congress. When
15 did you have time to do all of this?
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MR . CRI SCI ONE : Well, some of it was done
on my own time, and, you know, some – – you know, I think
all of us at the NRC have a little bit of time in the
k…,o …/
work week to talk to colleagues and, yo” , review things.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: If you had to put
a percentage on it, how much of a percentage of your time
did you put into this effort during your normal duty
hours?
MR . CRISCIONE: To my normal duty hours,
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I’d say the week I wrote that letter to the Chairman maybe
20 hours, maybe not that much. I don’ t know. Other
weeks, really not much at all . When I walked down to
the — in July, that was on my lunch hour. I’ve got a
three-hour lunch hour built i nto my schedule.
And, you know, a lot of the — a lot of
interactions I had after the letter to the Chairman was
done, you know, while I was on — at home on leave, so
a lot of it was done in the evenings. And most of the
interactions with the congressional staff, I could say
all of it, but I’m not certain it was every single – – all
of it, but, you know, that was done on my own time.
That letter to the Chairman, you know, I
think it ‘ s a gray area to me on whether or not I’m allowed
to write a letter to the Chairman on company time, so
to speak, bur. it was probably 20 hours that week.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Okay. Have you
used your position as an NRC employee to access internal
agency documents, non-public information, for which you
did not have an official need to know?
MR . CRISCIONE: I think the — I think to
answer that I would have to caveat what an official need
to know is. But I feel as a concerned federal employee
who has listened r.o another employee express their
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concerns about issues , not just one other employe but
several, the same issue, that, you know, it’s — I have
official business to, you know, go into ADAMS and look
at documents that I’m not restricted from seeing.
Now, there is others who might define it
differently, but I — if you want me to address
SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: You
MR. CRISCIONE : — give me the question
again.
SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: You currently work
for the Office of Research.
MR. CRISCIONE : Yeah .
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Let’s say an issue
pops up in the Office of Licensing. Do you have a need
to know or official duty responsibility to go out and
review those documents from an Office of Licensing?
MR. CRISCIONE: I certainly bel ieve I
might. I mean, I —
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS : Normal course of
duty, what are your normal duties
issues?
MR. CRISCIONE : Well , one of my —
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: screening
MR . CRISCIONE: One of my normal duties is
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1 to review all of the OpE coming into the agency. I’m
2 not the only one that does that, but I’m, you know, one
3 of the people in t he branch that does that. And, you
4 know, I have seen p ieces of OpE where I might have
5 questions of or need some knowledge of or want to dig
6 a little bit, where I have gone and accessed ADAMS
7 documents .
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And one of them was a licensing issue. You
know, there was an issue with Wolf Creek on how they
(;VJ+~.-
handled their feed ear isolation signal.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: So by virtue of not
being restricted from access, you have access – – you have
official need to access all of — all documents if you
are not restricted, is that what you’re telling me?
MR. CRISCIONE: I don’t know what the NRC
16 policy is on accessing documents in ADAMS. But I have
17 always assumed that if you can’t access it, you don’t
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have the —
SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: Need to know.
MR . CRISCIONE: You don’t have the
electronic access to it. Yeah. If you don’t have
22 the — you know, need to know, a lot of people define
23 that different ways. But if you ‘ re not allowed to see
24 t hat document, I have always assumed you don’t have the
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1 electronic access t o it .
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2 Like I don ‘ t know what is going to happen
3 with this transcrip t, but I’m assuming it’s not going
4 to go into ADAMS in a spot La rry Criscione can get to .
5 All right? I mean, I ass ume that ADAMS is set up so that
6 if NRC employees cannot – – a certain NRC employee cannot
7 see something, then he doesn’ t have electronically the
8 ability to see i t. I j ust assume that if I can get to
9 it in ADAMS, I have the — I’m allowed to see it.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS : There is a
11 difference between a cit izen having access and having
12 access to non-publ i c information, and an NRC employee
13 having access to a large majority of non-public
14 information
15 MR. CRISCIONE : Right.
16 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: — for personal
1 7 use. Have you accessed NRC records, non-public
18 records, for your personal use?
19 MR . CRISCIONE : What do you mean by
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“personal use”?
SR . SPEC . AGENT WALLS: Your personal
22 goals, ambitions, t hat you wouldn’t normally have access
23 to as a U.S. citizen.
24 MR. CRISCIONE: No.
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SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: And not – – go ahead.
2 I’ll let you answer that .
3 MR . CRISCIONE : I have to say no. I mean,
4 I have access to a l ot of documents that — from our
5 responsibilities in OEGIB I probably didn’t need to look
6 at to get my job done that day. But, you know, when I
7 have a concern, or when a fellow employee brings a
8 concern to me, I bel ieve that as an NRC employee I’ve
9 got an obligation to look into things.
10 SR . SPEC . AGENT WALLS : When you look into
11 these things, do you work with your supervisor? Does
12 he approve you to look into these matters beyond your
assigned duties?
MR . CRISCIONE: No.
15 SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: So on occasion you
16 use your NRC access t o all documents to pursue matters
17 that aren’t assigned to you, officially assigned to you.
18 MR . CRISCIONE: On occasion, I l ook at
19 ADAMS documents that are on matters not officially
20
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assigned to me, yes .
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: When was t he last
22 time you have done that?
23 MR . CRISCIONE: Well, I don’t think I’ve
24 done i t this week, but I’m — I might be wrong there.
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The letter -~ the ChairmanJ’- t he office is writing a
letter to a state legislator in Missouri on the Callaway
plant incident . And I came across it, and I requested
from the – – one of the Chairman’s aides, Jake Zimmerman,
who isn’t with the Chairman, I found out, anymore, an
open door meeting with the Chairman.
And that is probably the last time I
accessed a document in ADAMS that wasn’t part of my
official j ob duties. But I do feel that as an NRC
employee who has nuclear safety concerns, you know, I
am authorized to look at that document. And tha t was
I believe last week. I mean, it’s possible it was
Monday, but I don’t think so.
SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS: How did you come
across that document?
MR. CRISCIONE: I was writing an email to
a woman named Lisa Marie Jarriel, who works in the Office
of Enforcement. I don’t know if you know who she is.
She is the allegations coordinator. And she has been
assisting me to some extent with the Callaway issue.
And in my email to her, I wanted to detail
the correspondence between the NRC and Jeanette Ox£ord,
who is a legislator in the state of Missouri. And I
believe I did an ADAMS search, you know, with the word
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1 “Jeanette Oxford. ”
2 And, you know, I was looking for
3 correspondence which I knew had occurred, but, you know,
4 even though I had always seen that correspondence and
5 everything, I – – you know, in my emai 1 to Lisa I wanted
6 to be a little thorough, so I wanted the dates and stuff
7 like that. And that’s when I came across the letter that
was being drafted, so
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Was it caveated?
10 Did it have any caveats on it?
11 MR. CRISCIONE: Actually, I think it
12 was — I think it was denoted as publicly available,
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which, by the way, it ‘s not.. It.’ s entirely
pre- decisional. It’s in the routing process, hasn’t
been signed yet, but I think it’s denoted “publicly
available” because once it is signed and sent to this
state legislator it’s going to be a public document.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Public document.
MR. CRISCIONE: But I’m pretty certain it
20 didn1 t have any Official Use Only designation or
21 anything like that on it . I mean, it’s a letter from
22 the Chairman to a state legislator.
23 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS:
24 pre-decisional?
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MR. CRISCIONE : I don’t — see, I didn’t
2 look at every ADAMS code, but I d idn’t see any code like
3 that. But , I me a n , I knew from professional
4 intelligence t hat it was — i t ‘s an unsigned letter. I t
5 wasn ‘ t a PDF . It was a Word document . It was still in
6 the routing . There were still unsigned blocks in the
7 concurrence .
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SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS : Who was the
responsible point of contact f o r drafting that letter?
MR. CRISCIONE : I don’t know.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Okay.
MR. CRISCIONE : But the Chairman signing
13 it. I mean, I don ‘ t kn o w who — obviously, she is not
14 writing it, but
15 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: What did you do with
16 it? Did you save it? Forwa rd it?
17 MR. CRI SCI ONE : Oh, no. Well, I might have
18 forwarded it to the Chairman and told her I’d like
19 to — you know, I sent an email to Jake Zimmerman out
20 of the Chairman’s office , you know, saying, “I would like
21 an open door mee t i ng to d i scuss, you know, your reply
22 here. ” And I ‘m pretty c e r t ain I attached that Word
23 document to it. I might not have, though . I don’t
24 know. I did print a copy for myself, though. It’s on
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my desk back in OEGIB.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Did you save a copy?
MR. CRISCIONE: It• s possible. I don’t
recall.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Have you provided
internally protected documents to anyone beyond the
Federal Government?
MR. CRISCIONE: No.
SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS : Individuals at
POGO?
MR. CRISCIONE: No. I have provided
documents to them, but not internally protected ones.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS : Uni.on of Concerned
Scientists?
MR. CRISCIONE: No.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Greenpeace?
MR. CRISCIONE: No.
SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Buffington Post?
MR. CRISCIONE: No.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Greenville News?
MR. SULLIVAN: Larry
MR . CRISCIONE: No.
MR. SULLIVAN: – – I want to make sure – – the
agent is asking, have you provided documents, or have
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1 you provided protected d ocuments? Which of —
2 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS : Internally
3 protected documents .
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MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.
SR . SPEC . AGENT WALLS : Official Use Only.
MR. SULLIVAN : Thank you.
SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: Documents
designated Non- Public Disclosure.
MR . CRI SCIONE : Right. And the answer to
10 all of those agencies is no, or all of those
11 organizations is no . You know, based on the Callaway
12 issue , you know, I – – you know, I might have shared some
13 of my corresponde nce, but none of it is Official Use
14 Only, and none of i t is — it’s correspondence from me
15 as a citizen . A l ot o f it was done before I even worked
16 at the NRC. But no, I have not ever given internally
17
/ : 1/Jl:. s-1
18
protected documents to any of those organizations.
SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS: There have been two
19 articles from Iranian press citing you in these
20 articles.
21 press?
22
23
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Have you provided information to foreign
MR. CRISCIONE: No, I have not.
SR . SPEC . AGENT WALLS: By any means?
MR . CRISCIONE: No.
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SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS :
89
Have you been
2 interviewed by foreign press?
3 MR. CRI SCI ONE: No , I have not .
4 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: How did they come
5 in con tact with you r information to quote you directly
6 in t hese a r tic les?
7 MR. CRI SCIONE : I ‘m pretty certain they
8 read The Hu£fington Pos t or t he eNews wire or something .
9 SR. SPEC . AGENT WALLS: Have you been
10 contacted by t he Iranian press or anyone representing
1 1 Iran?
MR . CRISCIONE : No , I have not.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: How did Greenpeace
14 and The Buffingt on Post come into possession of the
1 5 unredacted GI-2 04 report?
1 6 MR . CRISCI ONE : It would be speculation for
17 me to answer that. I – –
18 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Speculate, please.
19 MR . CRISCI ONE: Official answer is I don’t
20 know. But the specu lation is I beli eve it was provided
21 to them by a congressional staffer.
22
23 staffer?
24
SR . S PEC . AGENT WALLS : Who is that
MR . CRISCIONE : I really can 1 t speculate on
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1 that. I mean, i f I knew, and if the IG from the Hill
2 was asking me, I think it ‘ s appropriate. But I don’t
3 know, and I don’t —
4 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: We came across some
5 information where you indicated you suspect who released
6 it. So I’m asking you, who do you suspect released it?
MR. CRISCIONE : I don’t know who released
8 it . And I
9 SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: You’re very
10 hesitant. Somebody has given you — you are of the
11 assumption that you ‘ve got a good idea who released it.
Why are you so hesitant?
MR. CRISCI ONE : Why? Because we are the
nuclear regulatory a gency. We are overseeing you
know, we ‘re a federal – – we ‘re an executive branch
agency, but we a r e — you know, we have congressional
oversight. And I really I don’t think it’s
appropriate for me to speculate on what congressional
office might have released what. I mean, I don’t know
for certain.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS : Let’ s – – why do you
suspect somebo dy? What did they tell you?
MR. CRISCIONE : What did who tell me?
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS:
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1 suspect somebody released t.his informat.ion. I ‘m asking
2 you who. You have an obligation, as a federal employee,
3 a member who is sworn to the Constitution
4 MR. CRISCIONE: Right.
s SR . SPEC. AGENT WALLS: — to protect this
information. This information goc out in the public.
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: And it. is very
8 appropriate that the NRC OIG ask you that question,
9 because it is our responsibility to track down where that
10 information went . So if you have information
11 pertaining to the release of that: information, it is your
12 duty as a government employee to answer that.
13 MR. CRISCIONE: I agree 100 percent with
14 that. But I don’t have information; I’m speculating.
15 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Let me ref er you
16 back to an email thac we have possession of.
17 MR. CRISCIONE : Okay.
18 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: From you . It
19 states that you have a very good idea of what
20 congressional staffer released that. Why would you say
21 that to a supervisor if you didn’t have that information?
22 And let me remind you, you are under oath this whole time.
23
24
MR. CRISCIONE: Right.
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Okay?
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MR. CRISCIONE: And I haven’ t said anything
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: I understand that.
But what I want to remind you of is most of the time when
we interview people, if you make a mistake in government,
if you do something wrong, okay, it’s never as bad as
the lie to cover it up.
MR. CRISCIONE: Right.
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Okay?
MR. CRISCIONE: I am not going to lie to
cover it up, and I’m not going to give you a name that
I —
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: You also said that
you didn’t think it was appropriate to tell us. But if
it was a congressional inquiry on the Hill, you would
be obliged to tell them?
MR. CRISCIONE: That’s completely
different, because that’s — a ~~4;,, ~~ Congressman – – c~J f’err
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Let 1 s go back to
Agent Walls’ question. In that email where you had
stated to your supervisor that you had a good idea of
what congressional staff officer rel eased it —
way?
MR. SULLIVAN : Could I say it a different
Randy Sullivan. I think we are obligated to
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answer the agent’s question. The issue is , if you are
just speculating , you should say that. If you have some
information that led you to that speculation, you should
give them that. And if you are just spouting off with
some wild idea, you should say that. But answer the
agent’s question I think is the best way to go.
MR. CRISCIONE: All righc.
SR. SPEC. AGENT WALLS: Who do you suspect
released it, the screening report and the Chairman’s
letter?
MR. CRISCIONE: I have absolutely no proof
of this, and no idea, but when I — and I haven’t seen
that email to my supervisor, but I — and I would like
to see it . But I was probably referring to Kucinich’s
office.
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: I’m sorry . Who?
MR. CRISCIONE: Kucinich.
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Who specifically in
Dennis Kucinich’s office?
MR. CRISCIONE: I can only tel l you who I
sent it to there . I can’t really speculate on who might
have given it. I mean, it could have been —
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: And who did you send
it to in that off ice?
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MR. CRISCIONE: I believe I sent it to Marty
2 Gelfand.
3 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Could you spell the
4 last name, please?
s MR. CRISCIONE: Yeah. It ‘s
6 G- E- L- F-A-N- D. And Victor Egerton.
7 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: And how do you know
8 t hose individuals?
9 MR . CRISCIONE: Well, I have actually known
10 Marty for years, since 2008. But
11 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: In what capacity?
12 MR. CRISCIONE: Well, he helped me with
13 some of the Callaway stuff. I used to live in Dennis’
14 district when I was in – – and – – when I was in Ohio. But
15 I don ‘ t think Marty gave it to anybody.
But, you know, when I was looking for – – you
17 know, I don’t know how to find a Congressman’s email
1 8 address, but, you know, when I was looking for
1 9 Congressmen on the House Energy and Commerce Committee,
20 on the Environment and Public Works Committee, on the
21 Homeland Security Commi ttee, Government Affairs, you
22 know, I could find the phone number on the internet, you
23 know, on the Senate pages or House pages, and I ‘d call
24 and say, “Well, who i s your lead, you know, Majority and
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1 Minority contact for these issues with the NRC?”
2 And, you know, that’s usually who I decided
3 who to send you know, what email to send it to. I
4 mean, you know, I might have sent it to Vic Egerton, but
5 I was really sending it to Dennis Kucinich. I mean, I
6 just — you know, Dennis doesn’t have an email that every
7 federal employee can — that’s why he has a staff is to
8 receive stuff .
9 MR. SULLIVAN: Larry, just to be complete,
10 is there a reason the agent asked, did you have some basis
11 for this speculation?
12 MR. CRISCIONE: Um – –
13 MR . SULLIVAN: If you didn’t, just say you
14 didn’t.
15 MR . CRISCIONE: Yeah. I mean, you know,
16 really, no more speculation than that Tom Zeller of The
kv..ov .s
17 Huffington Post is from the Cleveland area , and E:hat o+a~>
18 Kucinich . And that ‘s really my only —
19 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Have you ever spoken
20 to Tom Zeller?
21 MR . CRISCIONE: Oh, on many occasions, but
22 not specifically about how he got those documents.
23 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Is t hat how maybe
24 you were contacted for input into the article for The
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1 Huffington Post with relation t o GI-204?
2 MR . CRISCIONE : Yeah. He contacted me.
96
3 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND ; Why would he contact
4 you on GI- 204 if you had no i nput on GI-204? I : f-3’. ,LC__ –
5 MR . CRISCI ONE: Well, you know, I was
6 concer ned about how — how the GI was being withheld,
7 and t he d ocument was released in I think February, it
8 might have been e arly March , of last year.
9 I sent the public copy, you know, the
1 O r edacted copy, to David Lochbaum at the Union of
ti …
11 Conc erned Sci entists. And I gave him the ,MR number for
1 2 the unredact ed copy and, you know, I didn’t give him an
,.J .1>4 ,i 5 .:J ~ ,,
13 unredacted copy, but I gave him the ”-sent to” number,
14 so he coul d easi ly FOIA it.
15 And I think. that, you know, come —
1 6 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND : Well, what
17 timefr ame did you send it to Mr . Lochbaum?
1 8 MR. CRI SCIONE: Well, that was — I don’t
19 have the exact date, but it was late February/early
20 March.
21
22
23
24
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: February of?
MR. CRISCIONE : 2012 .
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: 2012 .
MR . CRI SCI ONE : Yeah. It was r i ght around
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1 the — I mean, obviously, it was af t e r the — it was after
2 the redacted copy was released. I t hink that might have
been March 6th, so – –
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Okay . Why did you
5 send it to David Lochbaum?
6 MR. CRISCI ONE: The redacted copy?
7 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Yeah.
8 MR. CRISCIONE: Well, you know
9 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Is David Lochbaum a
10 member of Congr ess?
11 MR. CRISCIONE : He i s not. But I a l so had
12 nev e r given David Lochbaum int e rnally restricted —
13 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: That Is not what I’m
14 a sking.
15 MR. CRISCIONE: Okay. But the reason I
16 sent i t to him is I thought this was a significant issue.
17 All right? And one of the things that the ucs kind of
1 8 is a watch d og in the NRC over i s transparency and about,
19 you know , withho lding that from the public.
20 And, you know, I think it was important for
21 him t o s ee t his heavily redacted r eport. And, you know,
22 it’s a report , by the way, that we essentially released
23 to them. I me an, we rel eased i t on our public website.
24 But, you kno w, I just wanted t o draw his attention to
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SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND:
98
Do you remember
having conversations with Mr. Perkins about releasing
it to David Lochbaum or any members of Congress?
MR . CRISCIONE: Wel l, back in
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND; Yes or no.
MR. CRISCIONE: Okay. No through the
March timeframe. And , you know, I’ve had many
conversations with Mr . Perk ins about this stuff after
i t went to Congress, so —
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Did Mr. Perkins ask
you to act on his behalf to send it to the people that
you knew, whethe r it be Tom Zeller, Dennis Kucinich, or
David Lochbaum, or any o t h e r person outside of the NRC?
MR. CRISCI ONE: Now, when you used the
pronoun “it,” if you mean by “it”
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: GI-204.
MR. CRISCIONE: Okay. No. But if “it” is
his letter to the IG, then yes.
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: How did in
regards to the GI-204 issue, you had previously stated
you didn’t have input. And then you said you had a lot
of conversations with Mr. Perkins, who is the author of
GI-204. Did Mr. Perkins ever come to you and ask you
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l f or your advice or input or suggestions on anyth ing
2 related to GI-204?
3 MR. CRISCIONE: Oh. All t he time.
4 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: But you said you had
S no inp u t i nto the 204.
I . r?’- llJ 6
MR. CRISCIONE: Okay. And when I say t hat,
7 I work in the Off ice of Research, a l l righ t? A lot of
8
9
10
11
12
~,,J. fe ( ·.L ._I
people there have Ph.D. s , a- number of -operators-at a
nuclear reactor plant. Richard Perki ns and Shelby
Bensi came to me all the time to ask me about opera tional
~lo” J >’~ o the p lants, you know,
co~1 ..r ‘ I rPO>t\ .y -J;,,of.tl
what happens if the p&t•gle~ ~t•rtea — how t he circ
13 water system works, you know , how the UHS works. So,
14 yeah, I mean, I —
15 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Did you classify it
16 a s t hey probably boW1c ed i nformation off of you for an
17 opinion ?
18 MR. CRISCIONE: Yeah. Or p rob ably b e tte r
19 c l ass ifies it as a tutorial .
20 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: And I know you would
21 classify your input.
22 MR. CRISCIONE: Yeah . Other than —
23 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND : You mi ght not h ave
24 had the total document , but you h a d —
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MR. CRISCIONE: I guess the bes t way to say
2 it is I was a techni cal resource , but not on dam — on
3 plant operation . The people who wrote that screening
4 report, most of them were hydrol ogis t s , civil engineers,
5 you know. They wer e experts on the f a i l ing on the civil
Covt.5-f’rfA. cf 1 ‘o.,,,
6 eng ineering .ins trticti~R-, not on p lant construction.
I : r-~ :s> 7 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Okay. Did Mr.
8 Perkins ever ask you or talk to you about his
9 d i sag reement wi th the redacted v e rs ion of GI-204?
10 MR . CRI SCIONE : Yes.
11 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: And what did those
12 conve rsations enta il?
13 MR. CRISCIONE : Well , he was kind of
14 frustrated wi t h what we were – – what we were, you know,
15 trying to wi t hhold. He basi cally felt that, you know,
16 t h i s – – it’s one t hing to — you know, t o get these
17 letters piecemeal and s end them on a piecemeal
dec i s ionmaking, you know, to withhold them.
But then his s creening report, you know, he
20 r eally felt that , you know, it r eally deserved a second
21 look as to , you know, the past decisi ons on what can be
22 released and can’t be released.
23 And, you know, the b iggest complaint he had
24 wit h me , too , was on — and I don’t want to put words
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in his mouth. You really have to talk to him. Bue I
have the impression he was under a lot of pressure to
remove what he thought was significant information from
the report, because it was Official Use Only
information.
And I guess what his complaint was was that
he is not writing this report to the public. He is
writ ing this report to Bill Ruland of NRR who is the
Chairman of the Screening Committee for the GI, and why
V” ,. I {
d-±d he dumb down his report, you know, to Bill Ruland
\’! ,. t. ~I/,~
~t this information ,
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: And what was your
response to his frustration?
MR. CRI SCIONE: I agreed with him. To me,
it fel t — you know, I don ‘ t want you guys to take this
and say I ‘m making some criminal accusation against NRR.
But to me, you know, he is of the opinion, and I agree
with it — and you’ve got to get that opinion from him,
I shouldn’t be putting words in his mouth. But we
were – – you know, we were protecting Duke Energy for some
reason from embarrassment.
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: And you are basing
that on what information?
MR . CRI SCIONE : I Im basing that on what he
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1 said to me. He thought we were – – he thought there were
2
3
4
5
people at NRR who were prone to prot ect Duke Energy for
reasons he didn’t understand, just. because it’s a habit
L.ll J.1, 0 //’-J
to circle the wri~~ ng~ around a nuclear problem.
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: And you agreed with
6 that, his assessment.
7 MR. CRISCIONE: Yeah. You know, my
opinion, I’ve seen it before.
SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: Now, is it — kind
lO
r~ J~ ><: 01 • \ ~~ of moving forward here, ~e re~t information,w as it 11 to have the NRC do i ts job and not protect Duke Energy 12 with the information being redacted, or was it to protect 13 the public from a dam failure? Which one was it? I'm 14 kind of - - I'm getting confused listening to what you' re 15 saying, because it seemed on one hand it's to protect 16 the public; in the next sentence it's t.o say, "Well, I 1 7 disagree with the NRC' s stance on that we' re protecting 18 Duke Energy, and I agree with Richard Perkins." 19 MR. CRISCIONE: Okay . 20 SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: So which one is it? 21 MR. CRISCIONE: Well , I think part of the 22 confusion is you ' re thinking it's one or the other. You 23 can write a letter and have multiple purposes for that 24 letter. And, you know, my purpose of my letter to the Released under the settlement for Case 1:13-cv-00942-RMC NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1 2 3 Released under the settlement for Case 1:13-cv-00942-RMC Chairman and, you know, my l etters to the Boxer and to Senator Lieberman is that multiple purposes in t hem . 103 senator there's Number one , it's really -- my chief concern 5 has been our process. You know, t here is something foul in our process that this issue has dragged on for so long. SPECIAL AGENT ESMOND: If there is something wrong wit